Letter 17: 1. Are we engaged in serious debate with each other, or is it your desire that we merely amuse ourselves? For, from the language of your letter, I am at a loss to know whether it is due to the weakness of your cause, or through the courteousness of your manners, that you have preferred to show yourself more witty than weighty in argument.

Augustine to Maximus of Madaura. 1. Are we having a serious discussion, or do you simply want us to amuse each other? From the tone of your letter, I honestly cannot tell whether it is the weakness of your position or the charm of your personality that has led you to be more witty than weighty in your arguments. First, you drew a comparison between Mount Olympus and your marketplace — and I cannot fathom why, unless it was to remind me that Jupiter made that mountain his military camp during the war against his own father (as we learn from what your coreligionists call sacred history), and that in your marketplace Mars stands represented in two statues, one armed and one unarmed, while the image of a mere man, positioned opposite them, holds back their demonic fury from the townspeople with three outstretched fingers. Could I really believe you brought up that marketplace without intending to remind me of such divinities — unless, of course, you wanted this whole exchange to be playful rather than serious? Now, regarding your claim that these gods are "members, so to speak, of the one great God" — I urge you, since you hold such a view, to be very careful about profane jesting of this kind. If you are speaking of the One God on whose existence the learned and unlearned agree (as the ancients have said), are you really claiming that beings whose savage fury — or their "power," if you prefer — is held in check by the statue of a dead man are members of Him? I could say much more on this point, and your own judgment can show you what an enormous opening for refutation you have provided. But I restrain myself, lest you think I am acting more as a rhetorician than as someone earnestly defending the truth. 2. As for your collection of certain Carthaginian names of deceased persons, by which you think you can reproach our religion in what seems to you a clever way — I am not sure whether I should answer this jab or let it pass. If these things strike your good sense as the trifles they really are, I have no time for such games. If, however, they seem important to you, I am surprised it did not occur to you — you who are so bothered by odd-sounding names — that your own religion has priests called Eucaddires and deities called Abaddires among its ranks. I do not suppose you forgot this while writing. More likely, with your usual courtesy and humor, you wanted to lighten the mood by reminding us both what absurdities your own superstition contains. Surely, as an African yourself — with both of us living in Africa — you cannot have so far forgotten yourself as to think Punic names are fair game for mockery. If we look at what these words actually mean, "Namphanio" means nothing other than "man of the good foot" — that is, someone whose arrival brings good fortune, as we say of a person whose coming is followed by some lucky event: "he came with a fortunate step." And if you reject the Punic language, you effectively deny what the most learned scholars have acknowledged — that much wisdom has been preserved in Punic writings. Indeed, you ought to be ashamed of having been born in a country where that language's cradle is still warm. But if it is unreasonable to take offense at the mere sound of names, and you grant that I have explained the meaning correctly, then you have reason to be dissatisfied with your friend Virgil, who has Evander invite your god Hercules to sacred rites with the words: "Come to us, and to these rites, with auspicious foot." He wants Hercules to come as a Namphanio — the very name you find so hilarious at our expense. If you have a taste for ridicule, you have ample material among your own gods: Stercutius the dung god, Cloacina the sewer goddess, the Bald Venus, the gods Fear and Pallor, the goddess Fever, and countless others of the same caliber, to whom the ancient Roman idolaters built temples and offered worship. If you neglect these, you are neglecting Roman gods — which means you are not exactly a thorough devotee of Roman religion yourself. And yet you pour contempt on Punic names as though you worship at every Roman altar. 3. In truth, I suspect you do not value these sacred rites any more than we do, and that you simply take from them some inexplicable amusement during your passage through this world. After all, you take refuge under Virgil's wing and defend yourself with his line: "Each is drawn by what delights him most." But if the authority of Virgil pleases you, as you indicate it does, you will also appreciate lines like these: "First Saturn came from lofty Olympus, fleeing before the arms of Jupiter, an exile stripped of his kingdom" — and other such passages in which the poet makes clear that Saturn and your other gods were simply human beings. He had read much history, confirmed by ancient authority. Cicero had read the same sources and says as much in his dialogues, in terms more explicit than we ourselves would venture to press, working to bring this truth to light as far as his times allowed. 4. As for your claim that your religion is superior to ours because you worship in public while we use more private meeting places — first, have you forgotten your own Bacchus, whose rites you consider it right to reveal only to the initiated few? Actually, I think by mentioning your "public" ceremonies you intended to make sure we would picture your magistrates and leading citizens drunk and raving through the streets. In that spectacle, if you truly are possessed by a god, you surely see what kind of deity he must be — one who robs people of their reason. If, on the other hand, the frenzy is only pretended, then what is the point of all this secrecy in a worship you boast of as public? And what good purpose does so degrading a deception serve? Furthermore, why do you not prophesy the future in your ritual songs, if you truly have the gift of prophecy? And why do you rob bystanders, if you are actually in your right mind? 5. Since your letter has reminded me of these things and others I prefer to pass over for now — why should we not make sport of your gods, which, as everyone who knows your mind and has read your letters is well aware, you yourself mock abundantly? If you want a discussion that befits your years and wisdom, and that meets the just expectations of our dearest friends, then find a topic worthy of genuine debate between us. Be careful to say on behalf of your gods only what will prevent us from thinking you are deliberately undermining your own case — since so far you have reminded us more of things that can be said against them than offered anything in their defense. Let me close, however, with something you may not know, lest you unknowingly stray into profane jesting: know that among the Catholic Christians (who have established a church in your own town as well), no deceased person is worshipped, and nothing fashioned or made by God is worshipped as a divine power. Their worship is rendered only to God himself — the one who made and fashioned all things. These matters will be treated more fully, with the help of the one true God, whenever I learn that you are disposed to discuss them seriously.

Letter 17 (A.D. 390) To Maximus of Madaura. 1. Are we engaged in serious debate with each other, or is it your desire that we merely amuse ourselves? For, from the language of your letter, I am at a loss to know whether it is due to the weakness of your cause, or through the courteousness of your manners, that you have preferred to show yourself more witty than weighty in argument. For, in the first place, a comparison was drawn by you between Mount Olympus and your market-place, the reason for which I cannot divine, unless it was in order to remind me that on the said mountain Jupiter pitched his camp when he was at war with his father, as we are taught by history, which your religionists call sacred; and that in the said market-place Mars is represented in two images, the one unarmed, the other armed, and that a statue of a man placed over against these restrains with three extended fingers the fury of their demonship from the injuries which he would willingly inflict on the citizens. Could I then ever believe that by mentioning that market-place you intended to revive my recollection of such divinities, unless you wished that we should pursue the discussion in a jocular spirit rather than in earnest? But in regard to the sentence in which you said that such gods as these are members, so to speak, of the one great God, I admonish you by all means, since you vouchsafe such an opinion, to abstain very carefully from profane jestings of this kind. For if you speak of the One God, concerning whom learned and unlearned are, as the ancients have said, agreed, do you affirm that those whose savage fury — or, if you prefer it, whose power — the image of a dead man keeps in check are members of Him? I might say more on this point, and your own judgment may show you how wide a door for the refutation of your views is here thrown open. But I restrain myself, lest I should be thought by you to act more as a rhetorician than as one earnestly defending truth. 2. As to your collecting of certain Carthaginian names of deceased persons, by which you think reproach may be cast, in what seems to you a witty manner, against our religion, I do not know whether I ought to answer this taunt, or to pass it by in silence. For if to your good sense these things appear as trifling as they really are, I have not time to spare for such pleasantry. If, however, they seem to you important, I am surprised that it did not occur to you, who are apt to be disturbed by absurdly-sounding names, that your religionists have among their priests Eucaddires, and among their deities, Abaddires. I do not suppose that these were absent from your mind when you were writing, but that, with your courtesy and genial humour, you wished for the unbending of our minds, to recall to our recollection what ludicrous things are in your superstition. For surely, considering that you are an African, and that we are both settled in Africa, you could not have so forgotten yourself when writing to Africans as to think that Punic names were a fit theme for censure. For if we interpret the signification of these words, what else does Namphanio mean than man of the good foot, i.e. whose coming brings with it some good fortune, as we are wont to say of one whose coming to us has been followed by some prosperous event, that he came with a lucky foot? And if the Punic language is rejected by you, you virtually deny what has been admitted by most learned men, that many things have been wisely preserved from oblivion in books written in the Punic tongue. Nay, you ought even to be ashamed of having been born in the country in which the cradle of this language is still warm, i.e. in which this language was originally, and until very recently, the language of the people. If, however, it is not reasonable to take offense at the mere sound of names, and you admit that I have given correctly the meaning of the one in question, you have reason for being dissatisfied with your friend Virgil, who gives to your god Hercules an invitation to the sacred rites celebrated by Evander in his honour, in these terms, Come to us, and to these rites in your honour, with auspicious foot. He wishes him to come with auspicious foot; that is to say, he wishes Hercules to come as a Namphanio, the name about which you are pleased to make much mirth at our expense. But if you have a penchant for ridicule, you have among yourselves ample material for witticisms — the god Stercutius, the goddess Cloacina, the Bald Venus, the gods Fear and Pallor, and the goddess Fever, and others of the same kind without number, to whom the ancient Roman idolaters erected temples, and judged it right to offer worship; which if you neglect, you are neglecting Roman gods, thereby making it manifest that you are not thoroughly versed in the sacred rites of Rome; and yet you despise and pour contempt on Punic names, as if you were a devotee at the altars of Roman deities. 3. In truth however, I believe that perhaps you do not value these sacred rites any more than we do, but only take from them some unaccountable pleasure in your time of passing through this world: for you have no hesitation about taking refuge under Virgil's wing, and defending yourself with a line of his: Each one is drawn by that which pleases himself best. If, then, the authority of Maro pleases you, as you indicate that it does, you will be pleased with such lines as these: First Saturn came from lofty Olympus, fleeing before the arms of Jupiter, an exile bereft of his realms, — and other such statements, by which he aims at making it understood that Saturn and your other gods like him were men. For he had read much history, confirmed by ancient authority, which Cicero also had read, who makes the same statement in his dialogues, in terms more explicit than we would venture to insist upon, and labours to bring it to the knowledge of men so far as the times in which he lived permitted. 4. As to your statement, that your religious services are to be preferred to ours because you worship the gods in public, but we use more retired places of meeting, let me first ask you how you could have forgotten your Bacchus, whom you consider it right to exhibit only to the eyes of the few who are initiated. You, however, think that, in making mention of the public celebration of your sacred rites, you intended only to make sure that we would place before our eyes the spectacle presented by your magistrates and the chief men of the city when intoxicated and raging along your streets; in which solemnity, if you are possessed by a god, you surely see of what nature he must be who deprives men of their reason. If, however, this madness is only feigned, what say you to this keeping of things hidden in a service which you boast of as public, or what good purpose is served by so base an imposition? Moreover, why do you not foretell future events in your songs, if you are endowed with the prophetic gift? Or why do you rob the bystanders, if you are in your sound mind? 5. Since, then, you have recalled to our remembrance by your letter these and other things which I think it better to pass over meanwhile, why may not we make sport of your gods, which, as every one who knows your mind, and has read your letters, is well aware, are made sport of abundantly by yourself? Therefore, if you wish us to discuss these subjects in a way becoming your years and wisdom, and, in fact, as may be justly required of us, in connection with our purpose, by our dearest friends, seek some topic worthy of being debated between us; and be careful to say on behalf of your gods such things as may prevent us from supposing that you are intentionally betraying your own cause, when we find you rather bringing to our remembrance things which may be said against them than alleging anything in their defense. In conclusion, however, lest this should be unknown to you, and you might thus be brought unwittingly into jestings which are profane, let me assure you that by the Christian Catholics (by whom a church has been set up in your own town also) no deceased person is worshipped, and that nothing, in short, which has been made and fashioned by God is worshipped as a divine power. This worship is rendered by them only to God Himself, who framed and fashioned all things. These things shall be more fully treated of, with the help of the one true God, whenever I learn that you are disposed to discuss them seriously. About this page Source. Translated by J.G. Cunningham. From Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. 1. Edited by Philip Schaff. (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1887.) Revised and edited for New Advent by Kevin Knight. <https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102017.htm>. Contact information. The editor of New Advent is Kevin Knight. My email address is feedback732 at newadvent.org. (To help fight spam, this address might change occasionally.) Regrettably, I can't reply to every letter, but I greatly appreciate your feedback — especially notifications about typographical errors and inappropriate ads.